Unknown Speaker 0:02 Hi, everybody. This is Ian homme and he and you're listening to unmuted podcast that explores deep and intimate conversations, stories and moments that matter with inspirational people on equity, justice, and belonging in their everyday lives and work. If you're interested in unearthing unmuted topics, people and ideas then welcome home. And today's episode we'll talk about food farming and land ownership and how they are acts of independence, revolution, justice, and equity. Today's guest is Dr. Larissa Estes White, who is the Executive Director of all in Alameda County. She has over 15 years of experience in public health and health care, with a focus on community equity policy and systems change. She received her MPH from the University of Arizona, and Dr. Peach from the University of Texas Health Science Center. And Dr. SS White is contributing faculty member at Walden University, and is also a board member of the college for behavioral health leadership. Thank you for joining us, Clarissa. Welcome to the unmuted show. Unknown Speaker 1:13 Thank you for having me today. Unknown Speaker 1:15 Great. We're, we're going to talk about food today, which is quite of close and personal. And I know that your family has a history in farming, but also being involved in the production of food from the Philippines to the US, specifically in Hawaii and Texas. I'm curious, tell me a little bit more about that history. Unknown Speaker 1:34 Yeah, it's, you know, in preparing for today, I spent a lot of time actually talking to my parents to reground my own history, my own understanding of the history. But I also listen to a recording that I had of my grandmother from 10 years ago, about her own story. And she grew up on a farm. And this farm was in Campton, which is an unincorporated area near Crestview, Florida. And the family owned owned the land, which was a huge deal. And and really goes into the importance of why you need to own land. But they grew corn ground their own corn mill, sugar cane, raised cows, chickens, pigs always had a garden. And one of the quotes she said in her in the recording is we like to eat what we raised. And that it was very much centered around a lot of vegetables, okra, peas, butter, beans, squash, and the cured meats from the animals that they raised. And that the and I always remember her talking about the meat that they use to season the vegetables was the meat they ate, like there wasn't any additional like, poultry portion. And it was part of childhood games, you know, my great aunt would climb trees if she thought something was edible to go find out. Or they would make cakes out of sand and broken dishes, spending time in the kitchen with their mother and the singing and the traditions behind that. But also the the traditions that got passed down to me around cooking specific, culturally appropriate foods like chicken and dumplings, and collard greens. But it really came down to and her own experience when it came to food and food systems was the importance of owning land, but also an understanding an operating business. And interestingly enough, that's my father's side of the family. The same thing was happening on my mother's side of the family. And you know the story of my grandmother being a cook for the Japanese officers when Japan invaded the wok city in the locals, North Bay in the Philippines in World War Two. And my great grandmother was a cook, and she would go to the market every day get fresh fish get fresh produce. And her working for the officers they treated her well was her way of protecting the family during the occupation. And as others call it the invasion. And it was her way of owning and having a level of power to maintain a quality of life. And that then translated into my own grandmother starting a farm as a hobby and grew into a large business where she was actually a tenant farmer. And you know, I remember coconut trees and mangoes and this is in Waianae Hawaii, and she was so sell produce at local markets and China Town. But the big seller and this is what my mother reminded me of was chicken fighting and the product she would sell at chicken fights which is a very cultural thing in Hawaii and in other cultures, the Philippines as well. And she would make close to $510,000 Two per day, selling fresh produce at chicken fights. And that that was also a place of power, where many people who were running for elected office would often come to politic and engage with people during election season. And when the landowner passed away, who was her neighbor, and I only remember his name is the old man. His children wanted to sell the land and thus in selling the land, my grandmother lost her independence and her primary source of income. And, you know, she's still alive. She is 88 now, but you know, the, again, the ownership of land. And what that really means is really huge. Researcher 5:48 Yeah, absolutely. And as a fellow Filipina, I've witnessed and have lived through chicken fighting, the Philippines, live from Manila, but also where my mom's from Lucas, North Bay, they have a farm and my dad's side of family also come long lines of farmers in Bahrain, in the Middle East, you know, you said something about land ownership as a means of power. And it reminds me of a lot of the work of black ministers in the 1960s. But also revolutionary powers, including Malcolm Epps, who said that revolution is based on land and land is the basis of all independence. It's the basis of freedom, justice, and equality. And you mentioned tenant farming, for those who don't know what that is, what is what is exactly tenant farming? Unknown Speaker 6:37 Well, my understanding of it is my grandmother didn't own the land, she lived on it, she had a home on it, but she was not the land owner. And so it's similar to sharecropping, in the sense of you're farming someone else's land. But 10, it being a tenant, you kind of own your own business in your own domain, you're just using someone else's land versus a sharecropping, where a portion of the revenue that you generate as a farmer goes to the landowner. Researcher 7:05 Exactly. And, you know, after the the end of the Civil War, it brought formal emancipation for for a lot of enslaved, even though they were free by definition, a lot of these emancipated people were still forced back to going into vulnerable land tenure arrangements like sharecropping and tenant farming. So they still remain in these perpetual dates to plantation owners, but also banks and other lenders through the like the systems of, of credit and mortgages. So what happened like a lot of them actually returned back to the same plantation, even though they left like these before that, so a lot of them just don't have that choice until going back. Unknown Speaker 7:44 Yeah, my great, great grandfather, James Simpson was born the year of the Emancipation Proclamation. So his parents, his parents were slaves. And to my father's knowledge, he was a migrant farm worker following the crops which is very different. And so they he lived and where my grandfather is from is in a was a black settlement in Central Texas called Post Oak community. And it is about 2030 minutes from the county seat of getting's, getting's, Texas. And I never knew about migrant farming in that same sense. You know, when we talk about migrant farm work, we often think about Latin Latin X countries, and folks leaving Latin X countries to come into different areas for farm work. But I had no context actually, until I spoke to my dad yesterday around his work as a my great grandfather, great, great grandfather's work as a migrant farm worker, my great grandmother, who was a cook at St. Joseph's Hospital in Houston, she owned a home within walking distance of the hospital, which was destroyed eventually when a freeway was put in. And she died from a heart attack in 1953, in route to Houston Negro hospital because her own employer wouldn't accept her as a patient. And, you know, for me, that's connection to food and that she was a food service worker, the impact of government and eminent domain, racism within the health care system. But then full circle, my grandfather was actually a patient and saw many physicians there in that same hospital system. And, you know, I never he was he wasn't a big talker. But I'm curious as to what his own perspective was of his mom mother's death, as a relates to being a provider and you know, in a worker and having to go to receive services at that same place, and like what that does, and what that really means. Researcher 9:49 Yeah. How is that the that story in some way changed how you see your work, and how you approach it, knowing that your grandmother Who has been the one to provide the nourishment is also denied than the necessity to live? Unknown Speaker 10:09 Absolutely. And you know, that's what it was stories like that from my own family, as well as in people that I've interacted with throughout my career that really drove me towards addressing the social determinants of health. And really doing it in a way that is driving policy and systems change within large organizations, and government, like we have the power to undo hundreds of years of inequities. But we have to choose to do it. And we have to be intentional behind it and about it and have the difficult conversations. Because until you have the difficult conversations, you're really never going to know the truth of how that stuff hurts, Researcher 10:48 and sadly, still see it to this day. 80% of farm laborers I believe, are are people of color, and they're under compensated. And they're vulnerable to working conditions. But they're also the same people who can't afford to buy the food on the shelves in grocery stores, which is a whole topic and food apartheid and systemic racism. And it sounded like it just fueled you didn't stop you. It fueled you to just like, continue to keep going despite like, this is so devastating and gut wrenching. Unknown Speaker 11:23 Yeah, the system sucks, and I say, in a grand way. But these issues may not get solved in my generation. But if I can take a giant step for my children and my children's children, you know, it's gonna take time to undo, but you just have to take those steps in the right direction, make good trouble, and sometimes be afraid of losing your job. Researcher 11:47 We know from black and brown communities that true liberation requires land ownership, which is a sentiment throughout time. And I'm curious about, you know, when you're thinking about tenant farming in the context of your family's history, how has that impacted how your family approached their their own production of food, but also how they've approached their life, how they've shared that history and their legacy to their own children and how they view food and how they eat together. Unknown Speaker 12:19 You know, food is something that has always brought together and that's why I love not just to eat it, but like what it means to bring people together, there's nothing like there's nothing more than I enjoy than cooking a great meal. And it stopped being the centerpiece for conversation for love and for people. But I'm reminded of my grandmother talking about the importance of land ownership and how you have to hold on to what she got, and the sacrifices that her stepfather made to own that piece of land and how that has been passed that was passed down to her and has since been passed down to my father. And this and that's both land in Florida, as well as now land in Texas, that for my dad's maternal and paternal side, land ownership was very important and that they were able to secure land. And that was not always the case. And so there was a level of privilege in owning land and what it did and setting up my family is provided provided that level of privilege privilege in terms of income access. But what it also did is it supported other members of our family. So because certain members had access to land, and thus was able to generate income, whether it be through farming, oil rights in Texas, logging in selling off logging, or wood, my family was able to provide a home and a space for those who were trying to leave the country and go into the city. So when my grandparents eventually met, married, travelled the world as a military family and then settled back in Houston, many because they had that land and the economic opportunity to move from that generation of wealth, they were able to then help others from the family, you know, start their jobs have the first place they needed to stay when they were starting their own lives and careers. And many in on both sides of my family actually credit, you know, the person that owned land or was able to secure a level of economic wealth, that it was about going back reaching back and taking somebody with you. And that's something that is perpetuated and why I do the work that I do in service leadership and the things that even my parents continue to do today in having a community garden, you know, providing fresh produce for community based organizations in the neighborhood as well as for neighbors. Researcher 14:50 And it sounded like a lot of what your family has done is that they've used both food and farming both metaphorically but also in actuality to forge a path Waste to citizenship rights and addition to community rights. And I've seen that also in other communities, including Japanese Americans back way before World War One, and two in which they, they didn't necessarily own land. But right after the 1882 Chinese Exclusion Act, they came from Hawaii, but also from South America. And they started owning these tiny little lands and started cultivating before the 1913 alien land act really didn't allow them to have ownership of their lands, but they still persevered. And now you have these third and fourth generation, Japanese Americans who, who start to continue this line of legacy, but to also give it back to their own families and their communities and creating these hotspots. But so sad, because I've went I've been reading a lot about this, a lot of what I've been seeing in terms of like the definition of who's owning land and who's farming, what I found is that, like 95%, is still goes back to white Americans in terms of ownership and operators, equipment for the farms, and also comes from operating. But if you look at the other hand, for farmers of colors, black, Asian, Native American, etc, they actually make up 3% of non farming land owners, and only 4% of them actually own operators. So they're more likely to be tenants actually than owners. And there, they also owned less land and smaller farms and generate less wealth from farming than their white counterparts. I just also wonder, are we still perpetuating what we've known from historical legacies from sharecropping, that even eventually goes into tenant farming, to what we have today that marginalizes farmers of color to be able to produce healthy and culturally culturally appropriate foods for their own communities? Unknown Speaker 16:59 We absolutely are. And I think that's, you know, there's a part of this that requires truth telling, and having spaces for healing, and bringing back cultural practices around farming. I mean, that's something that in kokuka, Lee Valley in Hawaii, they were trying to do with particularly young men, and connecting them back into the land and what it means to connect back into the land and mental health and well being but, you know, we, it's a hard conversation to have, because it's a painful truth. And we've established it's not only that, it's the practices, but we've established policies around eminent domain, zoning policies that we can actually fix. Like right now, like, these aren't hard things to fix. But you have to have the political Well, you have to be willing to have those very ugly conversations. These are ugly and messy. But if you can come to the table, and be willing to listen and listen first, I think you can overcome many of the challenges and create that shift in equity. I mean, we see it at I believe, it's called Bruce's beach in Southern California in the LA area and the land recently being returned to a black family. There's also Russell city, which I just learned about literally last week in Hayward, California, which was right along the coastline of the bay and how that was taken for industry. But it uprooted so many black families that likely had gardens like they had farms, all for industry. Researcher 18:36 And a lot of black communities and families lost their agrarian identities when they've moved and been displaced and erased from these from their own lands. And so they settled into cities and so they lost touch. And a lot of these identities but they're reclaiming and back as I'm seeing a lot of a lot of these communities hotspots coalition's as well as community gardens, especially here where I live in, in Los Angeles. And as you're thinking a little bit more about that, I'm curious how has that inspired you to do the work that you're doing right now with all in in Alameda County? Walk me through what that work is about? Unknown Speaker 19:15 Yeah, so all in was founded in 2014. By Alameda County Supervisor Wilma Chan, is really the new war on poverty during the 50th anniversary of Lyndon B. Johnson's War on Poverty, with the recognition of the role that racism and discrimination have played in creating and creating persistent creating persistent poverty, but also that there are strategies and things that we can do to reverse engineer what we've created through looking at basic needs, looking at quality educational opportunities and training, as well as what does Economic Opportunity mean and how do you create economic opportunity that promotes self sufficiency. So with all in we've been able to to really serve as an innovation hub for Alameda County, in looking at programs to do just that. And so a couple of the programs that we've been able to get off the ground include fallen eats, which is our circular food economy, where we're looking at how does the county or government support the development of infrastructure, human capital, around training people in new job opportunities, is particularly those who are have challenges with employment such as returning citizens use. We also have recipe for health, which is a clinically integrated model where we have food prescriptions and a behavioral pharmacy provided by open source wellness. And what that really is, is how do we not only tell people to eat healthy, but provide them with a food prescription, then behavioral supports to make the long term behavioral change. But beyond that, we were fortunate enough to be able to successfully advocate for food to become a covered benefit in Medicaid, California, and or a Center for Medicaid and Medicaid Medicare services waiver, which includes prepared meals food prescription and these nutrition supportive services. And then the other way that all in has really operated around food and food systems, particularly has been around place based strategies. So how are we training up community residents to be able to be the promoters in their community and train people up on, you know, healthy cooking, how to plant gardens, food, safety, hygiene, you know, how do we support resident advocacy, that's something that we've done with our Policy Lab. And now we're expanding into other areas of the county looking at healthy retail and working with, hopefully up to two corner stores in unincorporated Alameda County, but also exploring, what does it mean to bring something like a food Co Op to a food desert, where they need access to healthy and affordable produce, but also employment opportunities? And so starting those conversations in South Hayward? All things that are really very much place based? And how are we working with community and taking those community led things and conversations and leveraging our power as a government and who understands kind of how to source what are the policies that are out there that can impact that, and then leveraging our relationship for philanthropy to help start the seed funding, so that we're not necessarily holding on to it in perpetuity government likes to hold on to a lot. And we've got to learn how to let it go and let let the people hold it. And so in our work, we often work towards sustainability. So how do we innovate, create, and implement, but then how do we plan with sustainability in mind to ensure that community aged you know, other entities are able to carry the work moving forward at a high quality, and especially work that they're already doing? Researcher 22:59 Yeah, one thing that I that struck me about recipes for health, which is the the three ingredients that you mentioned, food, pharmacy, behavioral pharmacy, but also food as medicine is that often we've, we've seen food, and any illnesses that come from, from our own health, whether it's obesity and diabetes, as seen as a personal failure as a personal endeavor that we have to, we have to own that process of taking care of ourselves. And what I thought was really interesting about recipes for health, is that it's a community led action, and also innovation to be able to take care of the entire community in the neighborhood and foster the right conditions so that the entire community can succeed, as opposed to being say that this is your own personal responsibility, which has been the the long decades of mantra that I've seen used as clinical disease, support, healing, etc. And I wonder, you know, how has that? How has that, you know, impacted maybe some of the stories that you've seen as some of the recipients who are using these types of program? Where are some memorable stories that jump into your mind? Unknown Speaker 24:11 Yeah, I think about some of the early work where we were doing this is in partnership with Children's Hospital Oakland, now known as UCSF Benioff, children's hospitals and prescribing CSA boxes to families. And while it was a pediatric population, they were trying to impact it was actually the parents and the adults in the full family that really benefited and so this idea of its you might do a food prescription to one person in the family, but the access to food, the knowledge that is gained, and as well as the supportive wraparound resources, access to CalFresh you know, knowledge of where shopping trips, like teaching people how to shop, like that all kind of wraps around people and it's wraparound service, but it's a web of support. And it's the same web of support that we used to have when we had our farms. And when we had our land where we knew somebody was hungry, we always had food to give our neighbors. And that's kind of, you know, we still find ways to do that in present day. But that's really what food is medicine and recipe for health can do is you're not only teaching one patient, you're teaching a family, which eventually leads into teaching a community. Researcher 25:28 How has that changed or adapted now that we have high food prices because of inflation, today's economy, and we've had universal free lunches have ended, how has the program adapted to these economic but also political changes that impact families and individuals? Unknown Speaker 25:47 I mean, that's why we had to advocate for food to become a covered benefit under Medicaid. I mean, we were fortunate enough to launch recipe for health through some USDA grant funding, and work with philanthropy to provide matches to support personnel, we worked with health plans, specifically Alameda Alliance for Health, in better understanding the role that health care can play in investing its managed care dollars in this more upstream strategy. And while that worked for a couple years, in the in the middle of the pandemic, mind you, you know, hunger still persists, we had I believe Alameda County spent, I don't want to misquote but it was over $50 million, I believe, even closer to 70 or $80 million during the pandemic feeding communities. And when that money went away, the hunger didn't go away. And so something like recipe for health, especially among low income communities of color, which carry a disproportionate weight of chronic conditions because of historical trauma and access to care. You know, that's why recipe for health becomes even more important as we scale it across Alameda County, and hopefully across the state. Researcher 27:05 Yeah, absolutely. This is such important work. I wonder when you're having these conversations with your family? Because you mentioned something that really stuck out to me, it's kind of it's kind of like how when only laying and farming your farming for the community. I wonder when you go back to your family, what do they think about this important work? Unknown Speaker 27:25 I'm not sure they know exactly what I Researcher 27:28 think my parents either. It's like, Unknown Speaker 27:30 She's a doctor, but she's not. She's not a medical doctor, like that's about this. That's all, but they still ask the medical questions. Um, you know, I got this bump here, what do I do with it, but now, like, you know, it's being able to tell stories like this, and being able to share this with them, that allows me to share, you know, what I actually do and to talk to and to talk about it in a way that they can maybe understand, you know, they know that I spend a lot of time and community and that I always lead with listening first. And, you know, that's something that as much as they don't know what I do. They instilled in me, in their own service, with community and, you know, making sure that I've been a part of many different conversations and vary in a variety of different ways, whether through churches and community based organizations, but they know I can influence policy. They know I work with elected officials, and they know that I have worked really, really hard to ensure that community has what it needs and has a voice in places that they often often don't have access to. Researcher 28:42 Yeah, absolutely. You're, you're the not only the advocate, but you're also representative for voices that are not at the table or have been historical but also contemporary excluded from these conversations. And when you're when you're thinking about this representation, advocacy, you mentioned a term called circular food economy as part of a program for all eats, walk me through what does that look like? In reality, if I was a recipient or somebody engaging in this as a everyday committee member, what does that look like for me? Unknown Speaker 29:12 So I'm gonna give it my best shot because it's still it's, it's crazy, because it's conceptual in mind, but then you see it happening around you. So the circular food economy has really like five parts in its production, food production, food aggregation, the processing of food, whether it be cleaning, chopping, or actually producing meals, the distribution side of things, and then recovery. So where food that is typically slated for waste, you know, but it's still consumable. And how do you save it from going in to the to the waste system and recover it for distribution and so with the production side, that's our that's our farming. That's the bread and butter of the circular food economy is how you produce your food or producing it and healthy soil, you know, how are you creating an environment so that you're using good water and not overusing water, particularly in places like California, the aggregation side aggregation process and distribution that is really around an initiative that we're working on with the deputy sheriffs Activities League, which is a social enterprise, the Alameda County Sheriff's Office around infrastructure. So that's this idea we have of a food hub. So a centralized large facility where you can receive fresh produce, you can prepare meals, you can rent your rent kitchen space to entrepreneurs, you can store food. And then it's also a central place of distribution for where that food can go out across the region. And so our county is really working hard to figure out how do we place a food hub. In each one of our supervisorial districts right now we have one in San Leandro, or an unincorporated Alameda County, and we have one that is in process in East Oakland, there's plans to develop one in West Oakland, deep East County as well as in South County. And so thanks to the leadership of the Alameda County Board of Supervisors, they allocated $6.8 million last year to start funding this idea of infrastructure. And it's not just the food hub piece, but also supporting the security of land, where we worked with, for example, East Bay Regional parks to secure land for farming, and then the funding you need to get the land prepared for use. So, you know, I'll just add, the other piece of the circular food economy is employment, and ensuring wage equity. You know, for food service workers, people in food production, those are often seen and created to be lower wage, lower paying jobs. And our vision. And our view is that people need to be able to build wealth and to be able to live off of a decent salary. And that is especially important in California, let alone the Bay Area. And so we started off, I think, looking around $20 an hour, which is you know, significantly high when you compare it to the national wage. But I believe we may even be I don't want to misquote myself, but we might be close to 22 to $24 per hour now for folks that are formerly incarcerated, returning citizens who are working to be drivers within the distribution side, as well as being trained up to be farmers on the production side. Researcher 32:43 This is so inspiring hearing about employment as a key social and economic determinant of health, especially in this type of work as part of the circular economy. And the the amount of investment financial investment in this is is just so motivating and encouraging. When he got into this this work, as you're thinking about the circular food economy, if you were to go back to your younger self, what advice would you give your younger self doing this work again? And how would you redo it? Or maybe do the same things again, that you found that helpful? Unknown Speaker 33:19 Well, that's a really hard question. Because I feel like a higher power or a higher being has kind of driven my path. And I've, I've been just here to follow, I believe, also, my own family history has laid the foundation to follow this same path. You know, I think what I probably would have told myself is, you know, pay more attention when you're with your grandparents when they're cooking or telling stories like I'm grateful that I did spend some of that time and did learn some recipes. And this is something I actually plan on doing with my grandmother in Hawaii next time I see her as spending that time with her learning and recording her own voice and her story in her own words. But it's that is that taking that history and carrying it forward, because there's so many there's, there's nothing new. Like it's just the rebirth of an idea with you know, a bow on it, and some jazzy language, you know, the solutions to our society's problems sit with the people that are experiencing them the most it deeply. And so it really is telling myself, you got to listen, and you got to let people lead and you got to believe in people. I mean, I think that's the other side of it. I you know, I think government, we've become very defensive often and how we implement policies and programs, because somebody did something then you got to create a policy to prevent it from happening. But when you get down to the core of people in the core of humanity, people just want to be able to live, survive and do well for themselves and each Whether, and when we can center around something like that, to me, there's so much transformation that can happen and just that, but we can't always think that somebody's trying to do the system or, or to get one over. Because then that doesn't build trust. And when you think about all of this, this is all centered on trust. And I mean, to be very honest, it's something that you have to constantly work on is that trust relationship, and particularly, trusting relationships between government and larger entities that have impacted communities, and created huge amounts of distress through, you know, structural violence, and many other methods of really enforcing a patriarchal, you know, society. Researcher 35:48 Yeah. And when you're when you're thinking about food as potentially food as a mechanism for for healing, but also farming and land ownership. If you've heard about the the White House, they've convened this conference for food, security and hunger, the first 50 years, and it's pretty significant, because the last one, actually, stuff happened, like over 100 initiatives were funded. And as you're thinking about that work, you know, what are some of the things that you say that we still need to continue to do to foster community healing as as channels through food and farming, especially as we have this momentous opportunity in the nation with the White House, this conference, Unknown Speaker 36:31 we put ourselves on all these artificial timelines. And the inequities that have produced been produced over the last several generations was like over the last several generations, and it's not something that's going to be fixed in a White House Conference on hunger, it's not something that's going to be fixed in a grant proposal or a grant funding, it takes time. And it's being willing to run the marathon, and to fall, and to get back up. It's not easy, but you have to be 100% committed into it. And it for me, it really is looking at the policies that perpetuate some of this. And you know, I'm not going to say, you know, get rid of corn subsidies or soy subsidies, but you know, what are other subsidies that we could be looking at, you know, in advocating for black farmers, for example, related to the farm bill, and ensuring they have equitable access to land? And, you know, are they are we able to build capacity in them so that they can actually apply for these funding opportunities. I mean, that's straight up, like farmers aren't necessarily the ones that know how to do QuickBooks and run a budget and you know, the things that we take for granted in our very hierarchical and structural organizations. And so they need capacity building support to be able to be brought up to speed so that they can compete with these larger entities. And so what are the ways that we're investing in building that capacity? And that's something that we actually did during the pandemic, with community based organizations that we're delivering food to residents is, how can we help you build capacity around, you know, asking for, for what you need to operate and to operate? Well, not just what you think you can get? Or, you know, really, what do you need to pay people well, and to be able to do your mission? Well, and I think building that capacity, really shifted many community based organizations, and have better positioned them to compete for larger sums of money for federal grants, and to be able to partner with each other and leverage each other's knowledge and wealth of experience in pursuing implementing strategies addressing food systems. Researcher 38:41 Yeah, I'm clapping here virtually because I, because this resonates so much. And as I'm hearing this, I'm also hearing, you know, a learning collaborative, a community of practice, a network that empowers and builds capacity for those not entering, but also being part of actively producing in the forming industries, especially for black communities. You know, you mentioned something that inspired me in terms of legacies and storytelling. And he said a lot, you know, sometimes the first step is, is just actively listening to, to what our community's needs and removing these barriers for entry by just listening to stories. And I'm interested to know, as you're thinking about your legacy and your work, what kind of a story are you hoping to tell future generations that you want to pass on this work to? What's something important to you that you're hoping for others to really know about? Unknown Speaker 39:41 It's important to work towards working yourself out of a job. You know, I think about when I talk about visioning, it is what would the world would look like if the work that I did wasn't needed anymore? So how hard am I working to work myself out of a job? That's the first one. I think this I get one. And I'm laughing to myself, don't be afraid to walk on the line of needing to ask for forgiveness. Yes. And like, taking risks, like, if you're living your life safe, it really makes it hard to create transformation and change. And so this idea of like, I probably shouldn't even share this, but it's like how, oh God, like, what am I going to do today that might put me at risk for losing my job? And it's not like, doing anything illegal? Yeah. But it's totally like, like, how am I pushing the envelope to get larger institutions to think more broadly about how, what is equity? What does that really mean? What does liberation mean? How do you create self sufficiency? And I mean, I think in many of our safety net systems, if you've made it to the safety, if you need the safety net system, we as a society have failed you. So what are the things that you're doing that, you know, don't go along with how the system wants you wants to operate, but is pushing, pushing the envelope just a little bit toeing that line, like I don't want to lose my job because I got student loans to pay to, but you gotta be able to be in a position to ask for forgiveness. And to have, you know, champions behind you, that'll have your back in that. And I think that's, that had that was my experience with the late supervisor Wilma Chan, her predecessor supervisor, Dave Brown, and even another mentor of mine, Dr. Bert Lubin, all people that weren't afraid to challenge authority and to bring bold ideas and to find ways and be very strategic and how we implement those ideas. But you got to be willing to make the good trouble. Researcher 41:48 Yeah, absolutely. You know, the first thing that you mentioned, and I'll circle back to the second one is to work yourself out of a job. I just had this conversation. A week ago with one of my colleagues who works at a local health department, we work in large scale health equity transformation, but I also work in it in terms of how do we design anti racist and just food systems. And, you know, I was telling her the other day that I feel that my job and health equity is very, it's, it's profitable. It's it's lucrative people, you know, people need this work, because there is adversity, there is inequities in place. And as I'm thinking about your comments, you know, I was like, maybe that's also, that's also part of my future is to reimagine where I'm no longer needed in this work. That means I've succeeded in removing these structural and institutional inequities that are part of our society. But wow, that gave me goosebumps. I was like, Okay, great. There are other people who think that way, just like me, yeah. But onto your onto your second point. It absolutely resonates with me, as well. And I'm constantly thinking about it, but also struggling to really understand what risks means to me, but also, what's my level of risk? And how do I debunk and dismantle some of the habits and behaviors that I've been told to stay, you know, to stay silent, to stay muted as an immigrant and to follow the constant stream of status quo. But a lot of the scary stuff leads to bravery and leads to really important and purpose driven change. And so that's very meaningful, as you're thinking about that. From an individual's perspective. What can one individual everyday person can do to make a difference in order to participate and then engage in a just circular food economy? What would be the one Unknown Speaker 43:44 thing you know, the number one thing is supporting local farmers, local food entrepreneurs, also supporting community based organizations that are already doing the work? You know, I think in Alameda County, we have organizations like Daley bowl that does food recovery, we have street level health project East Oakland, collective, tribe homies, empowerment, common vision, black cultural zone, you know, these are all entities that are looking at land that are looking at food systems and food delivery, how to create access, how to support holistically family, so there's not only food, food is one component, really, of quality of life. And there's so just to name a few, but, you know, really is how do you connect into entities that are connected into culture, understanding their history, engaging lifespan, so elders all the way to babies, and really invest in the people that are already doing great work. We don't you know, there's always this thing that we have to recreate something new. Again, we really don't somebody's already doing it. So how do you invest in them so they can do the work better than you could ever do? It? Especially coming from a position of power with then government. Researcher 45:01 Yeah. And sometimes boring is is good. And maybe that's that's what we need and also still remaining absolutely having a hunger for curiosity to continue to learn from different vantage points of a problem, not just black and white. And and I love that. And I'm curious for folks who want to connect with you, how can they connect with you? How can they get to know you and your work and the awesome trajectory of of your career? Yeah, Unknown Speaker 45:28 they're more than welcome to check out you know, we're all in our website is all in a ll i n.ac gov.org. And that has a great overview of our work and our history from 2014 includes recipe for health includes a little bit on all our needs. But for me, personally, LinkedIn, I've had an amazing career, where I've had a lot of different people look out for me, and to help me get to places that I didn't think or even dream of, like, I didn't see myself as a director. When I got approached about this opportunity, quiet. People saw something and that's what I've always thought of is how do I invest in people. So you can find me on LinkedIn, under my first name, Larissa, Estes, white dash D RPh. And I'm more than happy to have conversations with folks around the work that we do at all in my own career. I'm a huge supporter of young people interested in getting into public health and health care policy. And I'm always open to having conversations and really supporting just people growing and people finding who they are and what they want to do and how they can leave their mark on this world. Researcher 46:42 Thank you so much, Larry. So this has been very humbling. Thank you for inviting us to your story to your world, your narrative. Thank you for being part of the Aveda podcast. Unknown Speaker 46:52 Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. Researcher 46:56 Thank you for listening to unmuted, subscribe to our podcasts on Apple podcasts or Spotify. Connect with us at inhome y le.com. And don't forget to sign up for our newsletter to receive our free show notes. See you in the next episode.